User talk:GallifreyanWitch
OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere. --Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)
Thoughts
Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari
POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING
Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild
Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)
Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.
Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time
Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.
Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?
And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.
Events yet to be placed:
- Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
- Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
- Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
- Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day
Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--Verity (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
| Year (UC) | Vetinari's Age | Current affairs |
|---|---|---|
| 1939 or 1940 | Possible Year of Birth | |
| 1941 | 1/2 | |
| 1942 | 2/3 | |
| 1943 | 3/4 | |
| 1944 | 4/5 | |
| 1945 | 5/6 | |
| 1946 | 6/7 | |
| 1947 | 7/8 | |
| 1948 | 8/9 | |
| 1949 | 9/10 | |
| 1950 | 10/11 | Joins the Guild of Assassins? |
| 1951 | 11/12 | Joins the Guild of Assassins? |
| 1952 | 12/13 | |
| 1953 | 13/14 | |
| 1954 | 14/15 | |
| 1955 | 15/16 | |
| 1956 | 16/17 | |
| 1957 | 17/18 | Night Watch |
| Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder. | ||
| Participates in the Glorious Revolution (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance) | ||
| Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16? | ||
| 1958 | 18/19 | |
| 1959 | 19/20 | |
| 1960 | 20/21 | |
| 1961 | 21/22 | |
| 1962 | 22/23 | |
| 1963 | 23/24 | |
| 1964 | 24/25 | The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic |
| Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork | ||
| 1965 | 25/26 | |
| 1966 | 26/27 | Moist von Lipwig's Birth? |
| Equal Rights | ||
| 1967 | 27/28 | Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat |
| Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit? | ||
| 1968 | 28/29 | Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, The Truth) |
| [Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program] | ||
| 1969 | 29/30 | Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson |
| Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it | ||
| 1970 | 30/31 | Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth |
| 1971 | 31/32 | |
| 1972 | 32/33 | |
| 1973 | 33/34 | |
| 1974 | 34/35 | Sorcery |
| Definitely Patrician. | ||
| Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard. | ||
| Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards. | ||
| 1975 | 35/36 | |
| 1976 | 36/37 | |
| 1977 | 37/38 | |
| 1978 | 38/39 | |
| 1979 | 39/40 | |
| 1980 | 40/41 | |
| 1981 | 41/42 | |
| 1982 | 42/43 | |
| 1983 | 43/44 | |
| 1984 | 44/45 | Verence II of Lancre crowned |
| 1985 | 45/46 | Guards! Guards! |
| Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive | ||
| Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship. | ||
| Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies. | ||
| Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary | ||
| Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch | ||
| Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU | ||
| Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io | ||
| Witches Abroad - Lillith deposed in Genua | ||
| Moving Pictures | ||
| Vetinari visits the Odeon | ||
| Reaper Man | ||
| Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting | ||
| 1986 | 46/47 | Men At Arms |
| Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne. | ||
| Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards [and slight limp for a short while?] | ||
| Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch | ||
| Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain | ||
| Detritus and Angua join the Watch | ||
| Interesting Times | ||
| Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire | ||
| Soul Music | ||
| Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!) | ||
| Verence II marries Magrat Garlick | ||
| 1987 | 47/48 | Feet of Clay |
| Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him | ||
| Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch | ||
| Movement to free Golems starts | ||
| Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives | ||
| Hogfather | ||
| 1988 | 48/49 | Jingo |
| Leshp war with Klatch | ||
| Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm. | ||
| Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before | ||
| Vimes created Duke of Ankh | ||
| 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War | ||
| 1989 | 49/50 | The Fifth Elephant |
| 1990 | 50/51 | The Truth |
| Wuffles aged 16 | ||
| Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent | ||
| Later events of Night Watch | ||
| Birth of Young Sam Vimes | ||
| 1991 | 51/52 | Going Postal |
| Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks) | ||
| 1991 | 51/52 | Monstrous Regiment |
| Borogravia-Zlobenia War | ||
| THUD! | ||
| Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls | ||
| Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly. | ||
| 1992 | 52/53 | |
| 1993 | 53/54 | |
| 1994 | 54/55 | |
| 1995 | 55/56 | |
| 1996 | 56/57 | Snuff |
| 1997 | 57/58 | |
| 1998 | 58/59 | |
| 1999 | 59/60 | |
| 2000 | 60/61 |
The Patrician's Palace
Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.
While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?
Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems. For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in Guards! Guards!. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.
Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)? Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved? The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?
Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/ Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are: The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229)) Guards! Guards! Feet of Clay Night Watch
--Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)
hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.
The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the Menagerie on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. AgProv (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).
I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc
--Verity (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?
It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the Pictsie page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?
And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration. --Verity (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Normal Talk
...using the page for its usual purpose
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. (Dromandkass disappeared after planting another little mystery in Mrs Beddowe's House. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.
Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --Old Dickens (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)
Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --Verity (talk) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)