Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum: Difference between revisions

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<div class="usermessage">This is the page for current discussions. Archives can be found in [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]], [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]] and [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]] </div>
&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''


I didn't get a confirmation e-mail, although I seem to have an account. Did anyone get the e-mail? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:00, 27 September 2012 (PDT)  It works now. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:50, 29 September 2012 (PDT)<BR>
<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.  
Oh wow...I just noticed that this version can display the ampersand in the title! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:32, 27 September 2012 (PDT)


Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>


Spam here already! How do they even know it exists? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 09:16, 6 October 2012 (PDT)


:Funny thing I just discovered, I can prevent new users from creating new pages. They will have to wait a set number of days unless they confirm their emails. Now i just need time to implement it. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 11:03, 6 October 2012 (PDT)
==AI content and fan project promotion==
::Is it not written: "We live and learn"? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:56, 6 October 2012 (PDT)
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


Strange goings-on back at the original wiki: no editing, apparently. A sign of progress, I trust. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens.  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages.  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints?  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink.  Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.''  I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere.  People don't necessarily read rules before editing.  If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''?  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970.  Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist.  My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break.  The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help.  My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.


He backed up the site and sent it to me. He disabled edits because any new edits wouldn't get moved over to the new site --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:14, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>


...and it's driving the spammers MAAAAAD! Over 250 today and the day's not over. I don't feel up to that; I hope there's some way to purge or re-start the user list. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:42, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


:I wouldn't bother, none of those new users will show up here since they're not included in the database backup that Sanity gave me. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:13, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
==Spamagain==
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
:Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
::May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:I use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmAccount Confirm User Accounts]. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)<BR>
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does.  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)


We now have the best part of a thousand spammer accounts arranged in one long neat unbroken list. I'm wondering if there is any way of  simultaneously highlighting and deleting them all with two or three clicks of a mouse? (Select all to a certain point on the list and then hit block and delete, ideally, once each..) This would be so satisfying.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 11:12, 13 October 2012 (PDT)
It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? ,  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)


:On this wiki a spammer has to pass two steps before they can make an edit. First they must pass the capcha, sadly some to them can do that. Second they must verify their email address, very few seem to be able to pass that second test. I wouldn't worry too much about deleting spam accounts. I plan to develop a script that will run monthly to clean them up. Basically, any user which hasn't confirmed their email after 30 days gets deleted. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 12:04, 8 November 2012 (PST)
The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
:: Oh. It was sort of fun shooting them individually, seeing the terror in their beady little eyes... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:37, 8 November 2012 (PST)


:::Feel free to shoot away, just don't worry if you miss. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:39, 9 November 2012 (PST)
:Any word on user account approval, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)


==Starting over==
The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last?  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
The notice at the top isn't available for editing or I'd fix the spilleng; anyway, there are some more bits missing:
*discussion pages
*categories (the list is there but not the page itself, heading and comments)
*The de: links (The Czech version seems to be gone anyway)
*and especially the wiki.lspace link
Other questions:
*Will there be a custom skin, wallpaper?
*Why is my ISP address different?
If there's a chance of losing any of this material, might we know what so we could download as much as possible while it's available? I've done my own stuff and some bits of history but there are many discussion pages I'd hate to lose, back issues of the Mended Drum, etc.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:35, 15 October 2012 (PDT)


:I do have everything, i just need to get it working properly. RL issues have gotten in the way. I wouldn't edit this too much since I may replace quit a few pages. Also, the cabal will be updating the wiki.lspace.org link soon. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:15, 15 October 2012 (PDT)
== Independent Wiki Federation? ==
 
I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the [https://indiewikifederation.org/ Independent Wiki Federation], which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
::BTW The spammers can create users all day long but they cant post anything without email verification. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:06, 17 October 2012 (PDT)
:I don't see why not, but I suppose [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.)  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
 
:::So one verifies his email, WTF! --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 10:36, 18 October 2012 (PDT)
 
==Amazon Outage==
Since this website is now hosted on the Amazon Web Services cloud, any outage to Amazon will affect us. Hence the brief outage today. I don't think Amazon is back up to full capacity yet though since the server is still super slow. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:44, 22 October 2012 (PDT)
 
==Spam Accounts==
Hopefully, ReCapcha will continue to block the creation of spam accounts. It's been 15 minutes and no new accounts were created but I was able to create a test account.
 
BTW: You shouldnt see a capcha if you have an account and have confirmed your email. If ReCapcha continues to work well, I may allow anonymous edits again. Next item on the TODO list. Image files... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2012 (PDT)
:It seems about 99% effective so far. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:09, 27 October 2012 (PDT)
 
Just a reminder, unless a spammer manages to authenticate it's email address that person cannot post. Very few of the spammers are managing to authenticate. The rest just create accounts that I delete every few months. You don't really need to delete all of them unless you really really want to. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:01, 29 January 2013 (GMT)
:There is now a list of about a thousand: the few legitimate contributors hardly matter to the total. Several have posted since the update. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:25, 29 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==Files Work Again!==
FYI: Pictures are back to working again. Also, sorry for the outages, first a slight hiccup because of a hurricane and then I got called away while in the middle of upgrading the hardware profile. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:09, 2 November 2012 (PDT)
 
==External Links Work Again!==
...you might boast about these things a little. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:45, 3 November 2012 (PDT)
:The link from Doubleday's Terry Pratchett site is still wrong, though. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 09:55, 10 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Moving In==
So are Talk pages going to be uploaded or are we starting anew?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 23:25, 5 November 2012 (PST)
:Eventually, I'm having a small problem bringing up the copy of the system that Sanity gave me. That combines with real life considerations means I havent had the time to spend on it. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2012 (PST)
::I was just worried about what might happen if I created one and then the old one was added in later. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 14:56, 6 November 2012 (PST)
:::Keep a copy. I've made a couple of new entries, but on the basis that they might disappear. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:03, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
The dense ''Cloud'' seems to have lifted; I've had smooth communication for a while now! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:41, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
:I increased the size of the server and fixed an email issue. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:37, 6 November 2012 (PST)
::Excellent, I had an issue with saving edits take five minutes and then fail to save but that no longer seems to be happening. I am also really glad that we have the little signiture button on the top of the editing screen again, it is really convenient.  --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 21:52, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Hello==
I just wanted to introduce myself; I'm Joe, I was kind of active on the old wiki but since the wiki's been refreshed I'm going to try and be a lot more active! If there's anything I can do to help ten please drop me a note! --[[User:Krysophrase|Krysophrase]] ([[User talk:Krysophrase|talk]]) 03:58, 7 November 2012 (PST)
:It is good to see that people are making their way to the new wiki, also, what was your name on the old wiki?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 07:41, 7 November 2012 (PST)
::I was called ArchchancellorJoe on the old wiki but I decided to change to my general internet name. --[[User:Krysophrase| Joe]] ([[User talk:Krysophrase|<font size="1">talk</font>]]) 05:39, 9 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Blocking IP's==
Please do not block IP addresses. This site is now behind a load balancer so the site sees everyone coming from the same IP address. The load balancer was necessary to avoid having to have the Cabal update domain records when I resize the virtual server. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:18, 18 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Quick question:==
Is anyone else having difficulty uploading files (jpeg artwork) or is it just me?
 
Also, I may be slow on the uptake here and I'm sure nothing's actually been lost, I'm sure the Main Page on the old site said we had over 3,000 articles/entries. This one tells me we only have 1,707. But nothing of primary importance seems to have been lost? (All the Discussions, yes, but rather lose those than the main entries.) Is it just a different way of counting things? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 14:36, 1 December 2012 (PST)
:I noticed that too. My thought is that it comes from losing the discussion pages and most other special pages such as the Catagory pages. Also it appears that not all pictures transferred correctly, many of the ones with symbols such as 'Ã' seem to be giving errors.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 15:07, 1 December 2012 (PST) (Also  is anyone else unable to paste text into the editor?)
:::Yep, I get a "Fatal exception of type UploadStashFileException". I mentioned the wonky counter before. (I just pasted the error message there.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:37, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
My recurring error message is Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/a/a3". [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:49, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
:Try now. I changed something and managed to upload a file. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 08:06, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
Hey, thanks! Works perfectly, although the artwork (just a bit of amusing whimsy. Is Matt Smith still around?)  came out a lot bigger than I anticipated! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:38, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
I would also like to see the [[Small Gods Question]] talk page fixed even if the other talk pages aren't. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 19:42, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
I wasn't aware of that issue. I'll try working on it tomorrow. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:39, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
1,524 articles today, despite having added at least twenty. Most strange! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 01:43, 8 December 2012 (PST).
:...aka the Fred Colon Memorial article counter? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:34, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
::How about {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}. Apparently, Sanity had this setting configured differently. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:27, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} now... hey, that's an interesting plug-in! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:47, 8 December 2012 (PST)
:It seems pretty clever; it doesn't include any redirects or other extraneous pages that I can see. It matches the count in "Oldest pages". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:19, 12 December 2012 (PST)
::It's a kind of [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Magic] --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:49, 12 December 2012 (PST)
 
==Lspace Skin==
The old default skin is available in your preferences area. I haven't forced everyone over to it because it needs a few fixes in the sidebar. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 11:21, 2 December 2012 (PST)
:It only works in the preview, though; I can't save the setting. In fact, I can't save any setting. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 11:40, 2 December 2012 (PST)
::I get a message saying my changes were saved but nothing actually happens.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 13:37, 2 December 2012 (PST)
 
==New Rant==
It seems slightly odd that absolutely no one from the foundation of the wiki remains active (except perhaps Death, who remains at the German Discwiki). OK, DaibhidC has chimed in a few times; not really active. The denizens of [[afp]] who thought it up in the first place have been conspicuously absent. The few of us on the staff now have remained since the second generation, but it seems we dwindle and rely on [[User:AgProv|AgProv]]'s input more than ever.
 
Why do we:
*not attract more useful contributors?
*not retain useful contributors (we've had many come and go)?
*not attract better illustrations, as AgProv just mentioned?
 
The current rough look and missing pieces of the wiki are another hindrance but the problem goes back years. Many of us have done good work over several years to produce a comprehensive and often amusing source of information but we seem to lack something in marketing.
 
One on my issues is that for some reason I always expect a small group of new contributors to join after Terry publishes a new book but for some reason they never materialize. Another thing is that when one searches 'Discworld wiki' we are pretty far down on the list, even lower then another wiki that has only 500 or so articles. This may be partially because of the site move but it defiantly isn't helping us. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 22:22, 14 December 2012 (PST)
 
:I don't find that problem with searches. If you Google the characters in the current 'Recent changes' this wiki comes first or second, generally. Major characters and names with other Roundworld meanings will have more competition and may push us down the list. Googling 'Discworld wiki' shows us on the first page, following only Wikipedia. This is part of why I wonder about the shortage of contributors. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 07:54, 15 December 2012 (PST)
 
As [[User:Zdm|Zdm]] mentioned, [[Talk:Book:Small Gods]] is one of the wiki's best efforts; how do we advertise that and reproduce it? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:39, 2 February 2013 (GMT)
 
==TODO List==
I should have some time to work on the wiki here in the next week since I'm off work. Of course, that can change at the whim of the lady and kiddo. So what's the top items you think are missing and that i need to work on? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 23:47, 22 December 2012 (PST)
:I am still unable to save any preference changes and I would like to see the [[Small Gods Question]] talk page restored. Those are the only major thing I can think of right know. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 00:05, 23 December 2012 (PST)
 
The only thing that comes to mind is (perhaps selectively) restoring the Discussion pages, if this is at all possible. [[Currency]], [[Sock Under The Mattress]], and the one about everyday economics of Ankh-Morpork, all had interesting discussions going and additional notes, as I recall. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 03:37, 23 December 2012 (PST)
*<s>ALL the discussion pages</s> (well, nearly all; a few seem to have wandered off.)
*<span style="color:red">Page histories</span>
*<span style="color:red">Other language links (de:)</span>
*<s>The Help namespace (mostly [[Help:Editing]])</s>
*<s>Whatever is wrong with the templates.</s> The templates are also mostly free from gibberish and editing themselves again, except the cover look-up from Amazon in the <span style="color:red">Book Data template</span>. It still doesn't work and leaves an unsightly swath of code across the top. I can remove that but it leaves the image off-center and the box too wide. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:00, 27 January 2013 (GMT)
*<s>User preference settings.</s>
*A minor oddity: the contributors appear in code, or just as the universal IPA in the [[Special:NewFiles|Gallery of new files]], although they're correctly identified in the individual File: pages.
And what have you done to the poor spammers, by the way? <s>There don't seem to be any legitimate sign-ups either.</s> --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 07:30, 23 December 2012 (PST)
 
Also it would nice to have the old Mended Drum archives back. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 09:32, 23 December 2012 (PST)
:I have those myself. I can put them up again if Osiris can't extract them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 10:10, 23 December 2012 (PST) They're there now. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
Also the getting started guide is still missing. It is the only major red-link on the main page that I can see. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 14:05, 23 December 2012 (PST)
:Also done. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
 
'''Merry Christmas''': Here's most of the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php/Special:AllPages old wiki] up and running. Still no access to anything in the Book namespace though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:15, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
 
I hadn't noticed that [[User:Death|Death]] joined us back in January (wie gehts, Jens). If there's a problem connecting the de: links he might be able to help. I'd like to lose those red links. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:21, 2 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==New element==
'''...and happy Hogswatch and Hogmanay.''' Hoo! This is getting confusing. I guess you mean there's no Book namespace in the "old wiki" (gods know why), but then in the "old wiki" there's a Talk page for "Bergholt Stuttley Johnson' but no actual page (likewise 'Broomstick'; of course it was only the Talk pages we were missing). Will it be possible to assimilate the Discussion pages into the "new wiki" or will we have to do that manually, as noticed or required? Casual viewers certainly can't be expected to find a nested "archive" wiki.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:56, 25 December 2012 (PST)<BR>
I have some archives and Talk pages copied here, but I need to know whether it would be useful to paste them up now, or would that just get in the way of a general restoration? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:30, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
:Talk pages have been imported.--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:21, 25 December 2012 (PST)
::Very impressive. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 20:04, 25 December 2012 (PST)
:::...what he said.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:19, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
Go here to [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php/Special:Export export] and here to [[Special:Import|import]] --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:24, 25 December 2012 (PST)
:::Weird. Talk:Bibliography exists but Talk:Book:Title doesn't. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:08, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
Here are the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=100 BOOK] pages...
And the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=101 BOOK TALK] pages...
--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:41, 26 December 2012 (PST)
:::Things are looking up, but Discussions for {{SM}} and {{TOT}} seem to be missing (both significant, I would have thought). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 11:36, 26 December 2012 (PST)
::::Neither of those are in the database. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:52, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
==They're baaack!==
Speak of the devil and in crawls a spammer under just the common IP address. How did that happen? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:54, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
Reverted his vandalism but I don't seem to be able to delete the bugger - keeps going to an error page. Can you help?[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 17:01, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
You can't do anything to the spammer: it's just the common IPA that everyone converts to for reasons known only to denizens of the H.E.M. The question is how he got to edit at all without an ID. I just tried and just submitting an email address won't do it, you have to be logged in.
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:25, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
:My fault, for some reason people cant confirm email addresses at the moment so I was trying to find the cause and opened everything up for a few minutes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:45, 27 December 2012 (PST)
::Sneaky buggers. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:05, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
ref, user Gigano: not only the wrong language but totally irrelevant too. I ran his blathering through the Babylon translator and it comes out as ''Thanks to its type design each even smallest room in our flat may become not only interiors functional, but above all pleasant)''.I'd put it in better English if I could be bothered, but I'm not.  Can't see that as being Discworld-relevant, somehow! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 12:59, 8 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Is it just me or are account creations not showing up in the recent changes?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 04:26, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Account creation is broken. I still haven't figured it out yet either. I manually activated TC01's account. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:23, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==A toast==
At the year's end, I suggest that our little band has made it to Florida, if not the stars.<BR>
I propose a ''Brindisi'' (surely you have a glass of something handy at this time of year) to the Founders,<BR>Osiris, those who have hung in over the long drive, and all the valuable contributors over seven years.<BR>Here's to us, and the return of auld acquaintances and the arrival of article 4000.<BR>
Happy Hogswatch, Happy Hogmanay, Bonne Année, Gelukkig Nieuwjaar, l'chaim and lang may yer lum reek!<BR>
'''''Old Dickens''''' - ''Editor Quia Nemo Vult'' ... 31 Dec 2012
 
==Database Crashed==
Sorry for the outage, the db crashed when i wasnt looking. FYI: You can reach me at disc@osiris-web.com anytime to let me know of issues with the site. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 17:01, 2 January 2013 (PST)
:Yay! You probably had to go back to work today and I empathise, but spare a thought for those of us snowbound in the frozen north with nothing else to do. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:33, 2 January 2013 (PST)
 
==Crude remedy for messy templates==
Not as good as fixing the stupid template, but to remove the weird code in place of the unused "photo" field, use "Blank.jpg|". See [[Bashfull Bashfullsson]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:53, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==Question re editing/previewing==
 
Hi! I've just noticed when I was setting up a new entry: I went to the Preview screen as usual to proof-read the piece and to seek to eliminate any glaring crass compositional errors, as you do. This is probably a case of All-Discworld-Slow-On-The-uptake syndrome, but I've realised the one thing you cannot preview in this screen is the Category. Therefore you can't see until you've saved the page is whether the details for Category are correct. it'sonly when it comes up as a redlink that you realise it isn't - I had a frustrating time with <<Category: Discworld Flora & Fauna>>, for instance.  I don't suppose there's any way this can be amended? Cheers. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:22, 12 January 2013 (GMT)
:Ah, the new-style preview at the top of the box, no. It doesn't allow you to carry on editing, either; I don't see the use of it. The same old preview button at the bottom beside "Save page" works the same as ever. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:39, 12 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==Back in business?==
A tentative hallelujah for new users confirmation. Who's still out there? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:57, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
: Looks like Vandals 11, Contributors 0 so far. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
Also, I was about to delete the dead link to "Biers" in the sidebar, but I wondered if there were some reason for it. ?
 
:Turns out there was a bug in the 1.20.1 version of MediaWiki that recently got fixed in 1.20.2. So I upgraded. As for Biers, I don't care about it. Did you notice the default skin changed? And user preferences work again. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:51, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
::I don't care if nothing works after this, we have the old skin back and that deserves a little party. :) --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 06:37, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
 
 
==Discworld Diaries?==
Hi, I wanted to ask about the Discworld Diaries (Assassins, UU, Reformed Vampires etc)
Is the information in them considered cannon? 
 
I have several of these and they have extra information not detailed in the books, such as a Ramtop kingdom which has embraced the Way of the Cospolite (and even the Black Cult that worship her evil neighbour Mrs Golightly), they name the Vampire Count that [[Greebo]] ate as a bat, and the previous Professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography who was eaten by Thunderlizards on [[Mono Island]].
 
Let me know if you'd like any of this added,
 
regards
 
--[[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] 27 January 10:43pm GMT
 
As an example, Mr [[John Smith|John "Not-A-Vampire-At-All" Smith]] first appears in the Vampires' Diary, as does Pamela Betty von Jones: they cross over to {{T!}} as the vampire committee pressuring Vetinari and Vimes to add a vampire officer to the Watch. [[Alice Band]]'s first appearance was in the Assassins' Guild yearbook: she crosses to the opening chapters of {{NW}}.  There are so many examples of information passing over from the Yearbooks to the novels that it's a pretty safe bet to assume it can be treated as canonical!  Even more - but as I know to my cost, not ''all'' - information from the yearbooks has been copied over to the Companions.
Would you have the Assasins' Yearbook, dromandkiss? I'd love to see the incidental info in that in more detail! Cheers [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:36, 27 January 2013 (GMT)
:I think we've always assumed that anything with The Author's name on the cover is canon (note spelling), even if it might have been Stephen Briggs or others' idea; we rely on {{DC}} and {{NDC}}, we've wikified them for years. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Thanks for your response, I'll start adding information from the diaries.  The ones I have are: Unseen University, Assassins, Thieves, Post Office, Reformed Vampires & Lu Tze's book of enlightmement, but I don't have the Fool's or the Watch.  I don't know why they didn't make more of these, there were plenty of groups they could have used (Seamstresses, Beggers, Times etc) it's a pity they stopped.  Perhaps they weren't selling very well, but it's hard to get them these days, and most now sell online for more than they were worth when printed! 
Regards --[[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] 29 January 2013 11:03pm GMT
 
==Picture Rules?==
 
Do we have any official rules on which pictures can be uploaded and used and which can't? (copyright, artist request, ect.) Also is there a list of artists who have allowed their pictures to be used? --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 05:13, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
 
The accepted rule on copyright is that to use a picture, it requires the explicit and preferably written permission of the artist first. I have retained emails and PM's from artists I have contacted on deviantArt and other sites so that documentary proof exists and can be cited in the event of subsequent inquiry. Most artists are absolutely pleased for their work to be used here - if you ask nicely - so long as they are credited, a link is put up to their website or dA (or similarly hosted) gallery, and of course a rider is added about it not being copied on without permission nor used for commercial gain.
 
"Public domain" images are acceptable if used and do not require permission - my adaptations of currency notes that have been reproduced here and there, for instance.
 
There is also a rule about "fair usage" - ie, if part or all of a copyright image is used in the context of an academic argument or critical discussion. For an example, refer to illustration on the [[Alice Band]] page, where "fair usage" would justifiably apply to both illustrations as they are cited to demonstrate a point about the character's origins.  
 
Of course, any member of this site who posts their own artwork - Matt, puggdogg, me - has implicitly given consent by posting their own intellectual property here, although this is of course protected from copying on by the same copyright protocol!
 
And, as Old Dickens has pointed out, it is common courtesy to get the artist's name exactly right in the credit...whoops...
 
I'm not sure about the provenance or right-to-use of screen grabs from the various Discworld animations, though. I note there's a Dibbler illustration on his page that is taken direct from the animation of {{SM}}. If we can't justify "fair usage", this may need to be taken down. Votes on this? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:25, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
:We've gotten along for some time using fairly small and low-res versions as have others. I'd say we continue as always and if an artist objects we'll take it down (no one ever has). They should be at less-than-photo resolution and modest size '''even as uploaded''' (the full version being available for download by anyone, not just the size in the article. Credit should always be given, of course. I think some of that is missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:09, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
:Is it not written: "everything works if people are reasonable"?
:I had a think about "credit should always be given". If AgProv has gone to Jennifer Babcock and been granted permission to publish her drawing, it's probably polite to credit her; people who write, though never so cleverly, don't sign their work in a wiki or get credit outside the History. Why do contributors of graphics get special consideration? Because they're scarce. We've had dozens, maybe a hundred valuable contributors of text. The list of signed-up, volunteer  contributors of useful graphic art is very short. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:36, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Quite pleased with myself... I've been schmoozing various artists I know or have encountered, and got a really nice picture for the Quoth the Raven page today. (Thanks, Jen! I know you promise yourself you'll properly start reading Pratchett one day. Given your academic speciality, I may send you a thank-you copy of {{P}} c/o your university. You'll either love it or hate it. I'm guessing "love."). with a bit of luck, there will be more guest artists on the way, one or two of whom may even sign up and contribute. you never know...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:14, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
:Carry on, you silver-tongued devil! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:36, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Another issue comes up with [http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/File:Dave.jpg this] picture is that it is no a screenshot of the movie, it is a picture of a prop from the movie, with no photographer credit given. How do we deal with situations where we don't know who took/created the picture? Also there are some other pictures from [http://www.paulkidby.com/news/july2010.html here] that I would love to use, specifically the ones of Terry with the clacks tower signs but I'm not sure whether 'fair use' covers them or not. Even Wikipedia's rules don't seem to entirely cover this situation. Also the We-r-Igors picture [http://www.paulkidby.com/cmot/index.html here] is amazing. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 05:32, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
I share your concern over use of the Pin Exchange image, as it seems to have been lifted from the PJSM site, who have a very large warning notice up saying they will pursue breaches of copyright and unapproved re-users of their imagery.  I have emailed them to request permission (see below) and we will see what reply comes back, if any. Until then I thought it was prudent to take down the Pin Exchange picture - at least temporarily, until formal permission is or is not given. Their FAQ page suggests they will be sympathetic, though!
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
Hello,
If I can introduce myself and humbly beg a favour. I and several other Pratchett obsessives run, manage and edit the Discworld and Terry Pratchett L-Space Wiki, which we intend to be as complete an encyclopaedia of all things Pratchett as we can manage. We currently have over 3,500 entries and we hope not to stop here!
 
''(link to Main Page)''
 
We are currently looking for illustrations to accompsny our articles. Mindful of your intention to protect your copyright, we do not want to infringe or cause offence. But please could we humbly ask if we can use images of your products, with your permission, to accompany our work? We are expressly not for profit nor in it for commercial gain, just performing a labour of love for Terry and his works. I stress that any use of your images will be accompanied by a full credit and a redirect link to your site - please view this as free advertising, as the Wiki comes up on the first page of many Google searches and draws attention from around the world. We are proud of our creation and naturally wish to source only the highest quality illustrations.  Your wishes will naturally be respected if you do not want us to use your material.
 
With very great thanks
 
----------- , posting as "AgProv".
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
==Technical difficulties are temporary; do not adjust your shorts==
The dreadful slowness seems to have returned. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:23, 9 February 2013 (GMT)
 
:I haven't downsized the server. I'll have to look at log files to see if we're under higher then usual spammer load. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:08, 9 February 2013 (GMT)
 
==Architecture Change==
I've drastically changed the architecture of the backend system to more easily allow me to scale resources to demand. If you see any issues or wierdness please let me know at [mailto:disc@osiris-web.com disc@osiris-web.com]. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:54, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
 
==Uploads?==
I can't upload a file. The message is: ''Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/8/82"''. 
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:59, 20 March 2013 (GMT)
 
:Looks like I still had a permissions issue from when I moved the image storage to Amazon S3. I've applied the proper permissions now and was able to upload a file. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:11, 21 March 2013 (GMT)
 
==Oddity==
Now, how can [[User:Konsumencerdas]] vandalise my user page on the 6th after having been deleted on the 3rd? ... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Downtime==
Expect some downtime this week while I apply security updates to the wiki. Not sure when yet though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:30, 15 April 2013 (GMT)
 
:unfortunately, I'm a victim of all the flooding in Illinois. No time for maintenance right now --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:19, 21 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Archive==
I just noticed that the old wiki ''complete with '''histories''''' is still available at [http://wiki.affordable-prawns.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page AffordablePrawns]. I don't know how to copy them, but you can look things up. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 13:55, 17 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Forensic?==
This might be something or it might be nothing. I expressed a suspicion some time ago that one spamming tactic being used here is for somebody to register as a legitimate user, allay any suspicion by making one or two legitimate-looking entries, and then use that legitimate site membership as a doorway to introduce spam. I believe I've found evidence of this. User Lonna7626 made a strange but obviously human change, just about legitimate in context (a very vague comment about the locker-room incident between Angua and Sally), to the Angua von Uberwald page, recorded in the history, which was deleted by a later user. Lonna7626 reappeared today with a spam posting in German extolling the virtues of Viagra and posting a link to a dubious chemists' site. I don't know if this is useful intel for Osiris, but it's another angle on the way these people are operating. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 09:06, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
:And if true, there's not really anything i can do about it. Now back to my unscheduled flood vacation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:23, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
Hope you're not too badly afflicted by the floods! Just think... you could be living in Ankh-Morpork and the river in question might be.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:53, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==1.20.5 Upgrade==
The wiki was upgraded tonight and I'm playing around with the capcha settings. Every edit should now require a capcha. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 01:36, 8 May 2013 (GMT)
 
==Spam & Moderation==
I'm seriously considering switching this wiki to a review/moderation model. Here's the extension I'm considering implementing.
 
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension%3aFlaggedRevs
 
Specifically, once a user has had a few edits reviewed, they will be added to the autoreview group so that they don't need to have approval for modifications anymore.
 
Thoughts?
 
--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:05, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
:Sorry, I don't know if I understand through the jargon in the Mediawiki page. I'll need explanations as well as AgProv, I suspect. It doesn't sound as if it will reduce traffic in ''Recent changes'' or the ''User list''. I guess I can't tell if it will save more trouble than it costs. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:30, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
 
==Wait a minute...==
the page title has lost the ampersand again. That was fixed!  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:34, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
:I still see an ampersand. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 14:54, 30 May 2013 (GMT)

Latest revision as of 18:25, 24 November 2024

 This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).

This is the page for current discussions.

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AI content and fan project promotion

So we have a new contributor (hello DugBride if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game Oath. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- Guybrush (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? Old Dickens (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- Guybrush (talk) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged Old Dickens direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.
Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by Guybrush. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and Guybrush’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble.
If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. DugBride 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even Oath, but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a Fandom page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — Guybrush (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. Old Dickens (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --DugBride (talk) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — Guybrush (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC) On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — Guybrush (talk) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I second all that, except that the Upload file page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. Help:editing is already linked from editing pages. Old Dickens (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
DugBride has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, but we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? Old Dickens (talk) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take Guybrush's advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --DugBride (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator. I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Have you watched The Holdovers? Old Dickens (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.
Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

Atom

Clicking Atom in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. Old Dickens (talk) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in Atom format) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by editing the sidebar menu, but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — Guybrush (talk) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Spamagain

Suddenly, the SEOs are back! Old Dickens (talk) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Might be time to turn on new account approval? I run a plugin for that on my wiki, works pretty well. -- Guybrush (talk) 09:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
May I ask the name of the plugin you use? I wanted to switch to Turnstyle captcha but that isn't in the stable release of Mediawiki yet --Osiris (talk) 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
I use Confirm User Accounts. I get a little spam (I just checked and there were three junk requests) but they doesn’t slow down the wiki or result in any vandalism. It has a “Spam” response which doesn’t send an email to the requester. The main downsides are that you have to respond to each request individually, and it does throw a couple of error messages, though nothing serious. (I’m currently running MediaWiki 1.40.1 and Confirm User Accounts 224079f.) It might not be the best available! -- Guybrush (talk) 07:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Twenty-five at once is getting back to the bad old days! Old Dickens (talk) 16:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Forty-three so far today, almost all from the same source. I wonder what the "human not bot" filter does. Old Dickens (talk) 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It's getting to be a bit much, and for extra annoyance, when I'm logged in I can't see any but the most recent deletions. If I log out, I can see that the spammers I've just deleted still show, but I can't do anything with them. Fortunately, they don't seem to be active but they still show in Recent changes. Can AI-assisted bots now defeat any captcha? , Old Dickens (talk) 02:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The Chicago insurance agent is getting really tiresome. It can do fifteen at once all day and night, apparently automated. Old Dickens (talk) 18:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Any word on user account approval, Osiris? -- Guybrush (talk) 05:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The log in procedure seems to have changed and there's a pause in vandalism. Will it last? Old Dickens (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)...no, they're back. Old Dickens (talk) 05:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Independent Wiki Federation?

I think we'd be a prime candidate for membership in the Independent Wiki Federation, which might be a nice way to attract some additional contributors and mods. They also have a very friendly Discord full of very knowledgeable folk who specialise in MediaWiki and might be able to help us solve our spam woes. What do we reckon? Doesn't cost us anything, and it would link us to a bigger community. -- Guybrush (talk) 07:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why not, but I suppose Osiris would have to apply. (I wouldn't even know where to find the org-application channel.) Old Dickens (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
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