Talk:All The Little Angels - Revision history

Old Dickens: /* In support of the Augustin source */

2022-04-20T23:36:38Z

In support of the Augustin source

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:36, 20 April 2022
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	One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, though when it’s first introduced they do March to it, so that might be a moot point. For the source at least, a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So it seems likely this is the song Terry remembers from his youth, and a plausible candidate for the inspiration he cites, even though it’s not the tune for the Discworld song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?		One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, though when it’s first introduced they do March to it, so that might be a moot point. For the source at least, a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So it seems likely this is the song Terry remembers from his youth, and a plausible candidate for the inspiration he cites, even though it’s not the tune for the Discworld song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?
	:As mentioned, the canonical lyrics do not scan in 3/4; they suggest a march. Nothing to prevent inclusion of these points in annotation, of course, but there is still no connection to the WWII version except the title. --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 23:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC)		:As mentioned, the canonical lyrics do not scan in 3/4; they suggest a march (Solicitr's "Shortnin' Bread" works, but so would many songs). Nothing to prevent inclusion of these points in annotation, of course, but there is still no connection to the WWII version except the title. --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 23:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Old Dickens: /* In support of the Augustin source */

2022-04-20T23:21:10Z

In support of the Augustin source

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:21, 20 April 2022
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	One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, though when it’s first introduced they do March to it, so that might be a moot point. For the source at least, a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So it seems likely this is the song Terry remembers from his youth, and a plausible candidate for the inspiration he cites, even though it’s not the tune for the Discworld song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?		One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, though when it’s first introduced they do March to it, so that might be a moot point. For the source at least, a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So it seems likely this is the song Terry remembers from his youth, and a plausible candidate for the inspiration he cites, even though it’s not the tune for the Discworld song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?
			:As mentioned, the canonical lyrics do not scan in 3/4; they suggest a march. Nothing to prevent inclusion of these points in annotation, of course, but there is still no connection to the WWII version except the title. --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 23:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Guybrush: /* In support of the Augustin source */

2022-04-20T22:53:35Z

In support of the Augustin source

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:53, 20 April 2022
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	== In support of the Augustin source ==		== In support of the Augustin source ==

	One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, so a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So ~~while~~ it ~~may or may not be~~ the song Terry remembers from his youth, ~~I think it’s~~ a plausible candidate for the inspiration, ~~and seems to have been a real~~ song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?		One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, though when it’s first introduced they do March to it, so that might be a moot point. For the source at least, a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So it seems likely this is the song Terry remembers from his youth, and a plausible candidate for the inspiration he cites, even though it’s not the tune for the Discworld song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?

Guybrush: /* In support of the Ascend Up idea */ Adding a little more detail

2022-04-20T22:50:31Z

In support of the Ascend Up idea: Adding a little more detail

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:50, 20 April 2022
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	Mr Pratchett's injunction not to Google the song was probably wise at the time, but now the first item found is this page (15,945 hits at the moment). --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)		Mr Pratchett's injunction not to Google the song was probably wise at the time, but now the first item found is this page (15,945 hits at the moment). --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

	== In support of the ~~Ascend Up idea~~ ==		== In support of the Augustin source ==

	One of Pratchat’s listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one, ~~making~~ a well known tune in 3/4 ~~quite likely~~. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom ~~Pratchett~~ had asked for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So while it may or may not be the song Terry remembers from his youth, I think it’s a plausible candidate for the inspiration, and seems to have been a real song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?		One of ''Pratchat’s'' listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one. It’s also never referred to in the book as a marching song, only as a “soldiers’ song”, so a well known tune in 3/4 seems fine. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom according to the fellow who posted the question there had been asked by Pratchett for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English at least it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So while it may or may not be the song Terry remembers from his youth, I think it’s a plausible candidate for the inspiration, and seems to have been a real song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?

Guybrush: /* In support of the Ascend Up idea */ new section

2022-04-20T22:46:02Z

In support of the Ascend Up idea: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:46, 20 April 2022
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	==The foremost authority...==		==The foremost authority...==
	Mr Pratchett's injunction not to Google the song was probably wise at the time, but now the first item found is this page (15,945 hits at the moment). --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)		Mr Pratchett's injunction not to Google the song was probably wise at the time, but now the first item found is this page (15,945 hits at the moment). --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

			== In support of the Ascend Up idea ==

			One of Pratchat’s listeners arrived at the same answer, but via a different route. Along the way, they found [https://groups.google.com/g/alt.books.pratchett/c/OnIkM_uh_tw/m/RKFPyfngmQcJ Terry’s post from the newsgroup] in which he thinks the source song was a trench song, not a marching one, making a well known tune in 3/4 quite likely. They also found [https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43673 a post from an old folk song forum] in January 2002 in which they come up with this song as a possibility, in response to a call out from folk song expert Steve Roud, whom Pratchett had asked for help in finding out if it was a real song for copyright purposes. All that sounds pretty plausible, and to me at least the song does scan in a similar way to many other reuses of ''Augustin''; I also don’t agree that accent is a problem for the pun (in Australian English it doesn’t take much to make ascend/arse-end work). So while it may or may not be the song Terry remembers from his youth, I think it’s a plausible candidate for the inspiration, and seems to have been a real song. Any objections to adding these details to the article?

Old Dickens: Googling

2016-05-29T01:39:53Z

Googling

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:39, 29 May 2016
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	==Dead link==		==Dead link==
	''Mess Songs and Rhymes of the RAAF'' no longer seems to be available on the web. Can anyone else find it? --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] 03:10, 1 December 2011 (CET)		''Mess Songs and Rhymes of the RAAF'' no longer seems to be available on the web. Can anyone else find it? --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] 03:10, 1 December 2011 (CET)
			:Easy enough now: see [http://www.horntip.com/html/books_&_MSS/1940s/1945-09-00_mess_songs_and_rhymes_of_the_RAAF_%28mimeo%29/1961_mess_songs_and_rhymes_of_the_RAAF_%28retyped%29/index.htm], but you need to download the pdf; the html is a mess. --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

			==The foremost authority...==
			Mr Pratchett's injunction not to Google the song was probably wise at the time, but now the first item found is this page (15,945 hits at the moment). --[[User:Old Dickens\|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens\|talk]]) 01:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Osiris: 1 revision: Talk Namespace

2012-12-26T03:15:36Z

1 revision: Talk Namespace

← Older revision	Revision as of 03:15, 26 December 2012
(No difference)

Old Dickens at 02:10, 1 December 2011

2011-12-01T02:10:28Z

New page

Only, the first part, which resembles the fragments in the book, doesn't scan in the meter of ''Ach du Lieber Augustine.''(1) The second part does, but I don't remember any of that in the text.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 18:13, 5 May 2007 (CEST)

(1)This may be because ''Ach...'' is in 3/4 time, which will cause funny marching.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 18:38, 5 May 2007 (CEST)

Note the appearance of All The Little Angels in Mess Hall Songs of the RAF (1545), at http://www.drinkingsongs.net/html/books-and-manuscripts/1940s/1945.09.00--1961-mess-songs-and-rhymes-of-the-raaf-(mimeo)/index.htm . It gives a tune, "Poor Alice is a-wooping". (Anon 22 Dec. 2008)

So the chorus has a history. This is identical to the "Google Answers" piece but still not related to the marching song described in {{NW}}. I wonder where to find the tune "Poor Alice..." The link looks like a useful resource for some other songs (it includes ''The Ball of Kerrymuir'', for instance.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

:Well, I've found a nursery song called Poor ''Jenny'' Is A-weeping", which, interestingly, has exactly the same rhythm as ''Augustin.'' But, again, you can't really march in 3/4 time (PDQ Bach wrote the hilarious ''Minuet Militaire'' pretty much to prove that: ''Hut! Two! Three! Hut! Two! Three!'')

:Perhaps Pterry was charmed by the lyrics of the RAAF song with its pun on Ascend up/Arse end up- but then why did he remove it?

: I've seen a not unreasonable suggestion that the tune is that of Short'nin' Bread:
''Mama's little baby loves short'nin', shortnin<br>
''Mama's little baby loves short'nin' bread...

compare

''All the little angels rise up, rise up<br>
''All the little angels rise up high
[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 16:25, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

==Similarity with "Drunken Sailor"==
I'm just listening to the song Drunken Sailor (basically Ó ró se do bheatha bhaile with different lyrics) and it is very similar especially at the chorus stage, I think.[[Special:Contributions/188.141.58.135|188.141.58.135]] 01:20, 29 March 2011 (CEST)

==Dead link==
''Mess Songs and Rhymes of the RAAF'' no longer seems to be available on the web. Can anyone else find it? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 03:10, 1 December 2011 (CET)